The Dreaded Fear of Looking Like Mom
This was an odd For Better or For Worse strip for me and is definitely not in the line of “You must have a camera in my house.” My wife likes looking like her mom. In fact, she dyes her hair red, specifically because she wants her hair to look like her mother’s naturally red hair. Ironically, my daughter has hair that is the same shade as I think my wife’s natural colour would be; however, since I have never seen my wife’s natural colour and neither have any of my children, it is just speculation. Nevertheless, it is the conclusion to which my daughter has come based on old pictures of her mother and she is a little perturbed that her mother would not want to wear her natural hair colour ever again; because...my daughter wants to look like my wife. She just doesn’t want to dye her hair red to do it, which is reasonable, since she is only 10. To a woman, today’s For Better or For Worse is not like the women in my family.
I know that our Anonymous poster from Corbeil may not like this; but this strip made me feel sad for Lynn Johnston in real life. I can’t help but to think that John’s message to Elly is really a message that Lynn is sending to herself through John Patterson and maybe it’s a message Lynn would have liked to have gotten or maybe did one get at one point from the real-life John, Rod Johnston. If so, I would like to say to John, “You should have stopped after you said, ‘and you’re a beautiful woman now!’” The rest of it is a little condescending, and would irritate me, if someone told me that.
I know that our Anonymous poster from Corbeil may not like this; but this strip made me feel sad for Lynn Johnston in real life. I can’t help but to think that John’s message to Elly is really a message that Lynn is sending to herself through John Patterson and maybe it’s a message Lynn would have liked to have gotten or maybe did one get at one point from the real-life John, Rod Johnston. If so, I would like to say to John, “You should have stopped after you said, ‘and you’re a beautiful woman now!’” The rest of it is a little condescending, and would irritate me, if someone told me that.
posted by howard at 11:07 PM
21 Comments:
Yeah, John actually comes off like a jerk in my eyes. First, he tells a blatant lie. Then he takes it all back with the "...on the INSIDE!" comment that is guaranteed to leave Elly more insecure about her looks than ever.
I said this on FOOBiverse, but in my circle of friends, the women do not actually want to hear "oh you're so beautiful!" from their husbands. We are all generally average pretty, and know it, and are okay with it. The men are all average looking too.
I remember one time being out with one of my married couple friends and the woman was making some derogatory remarks about her looks. She was kidding around, but sometimes it could be hard on us because we went to a graduate school where the women were all very attractive, and some were nasty about it. Her husband did not like hearing his wife bash her looks like that and told her, with consternation and befuddlement, something like, "But you're pretty! We're both just average in looks! I like you that way!" And this made her happy. It was a very sweet moment that is hard to reproduce in print. I have had women tell me quite plainly that they want an average-looking guy with flaws because they are average-looking and have flaws. I think many men feel this way too.
The honest, sincere route is the one I think a nice, thoughtful husband takes (if his wife can stand honest, reasonable commentary on appearance). Most women don't want to be lied to about it because then we know and wonder what you're really thinking.
I definitely agree that many women WANT to look like their moms. I sure went through a phase like that, as did many of my friends. Growing up it is comforting to feel that you have a role model for femininity. It often fades as our mothers get old, though. Now my mom is in her sixties and is finally showing her age, I think to myself sometimes that I hope I don't get the circles around my eyes that she has, or gain that much weight, etc. I think a lot of us women feel conflicting emotions about looking like Mom.
Although I will say, if my mom looked like that hideous "Ben Franklin in a dress and bun" pic of Grandma Marian, I would feel panic. Yet Elly kind of represents that conflicted feeling, if you think about it. She doesn't want to look like Marian, but she dresses dowdy and buns her hair anyway. If she's really so against it, why not color her hair, cut it, get modern clothes, etc.? Maybe she's just lazy, but it's interesting that her lazy rut makes her look more and more like Marian all the time.
John has to spout condescending nonsense. He's compelled to because, guess what, he's convinced Elly is a moron, what with having a uterus and all. Any legitimate grievance she may have is dismissed as the hormones talking because the fool won't admit that a woman might know more than he does. It makes sense that the only woman who'd stay married to the smarmy creep is someone who not-so-secretly wants to feel bad about herself. Elly, you see, won't allow herself the satisfaction of being satisfied. She wants to passively whine about being old, ugly and irrational because she thinks that makes her a better person than those of us who laugh off our problems. In her addled mind, not living life in deadly earnest means that it's meaningless.
Message from John to Elly : You're an uggo, but I can tolerate you. So, I guess you'll do.
Message from me to qnjones:
I don't know what you're talking about looking average. Why, just the other day I was asked to be a male model. When they ask you to do the "before" picture, that's a good thing, right?
qnjones,
I have had women tell me quite plainly that they want an average-looking guy with flaws because they are average-looking and have flaws. I think many men feel this way too.
I don’t know. Most of the men I know who want guys, like the muscular ones that shave all their chest hair and have no flaws, instead of the average-looking, flawed ones. Oh, wait. You mean many men want average-looking women with flaws. I am not sure I agree. My personal theory is that human mating patterns are the most like birds, where the attractiveness of the potential mate is visually cued and has little to do with personal flaws. The men I have known who would have been considered very attractive by women (had excellent plumage), rarely dated or married average-looking women. The way it looked from my perspective was that men would subconsciously assess their own appearance and from that derive a level of beauty they would find acceptable in a mate. After a certain age, the men might assess that level of beauty based on how much money they (the men) made (i.e. the ability to make a fine nest). Since you have assessed your male friends as average-looking, they may have accepted your female friends because they are above the men’s acceptable level of beauty, in other words like attracting like.
The honest, sincere route is the one I think a nice, thoughtful husband takes (if his wife can stand honest, reasonable commentary on appearance). Most women don't want to be lied to about it because then we know and wonder what you're really thinking.
I definitely agree with this. I make it a point to compliment my wife on her appearance every day. One day some years back, my wife surprised me by complaining I never complimented her on her appearance and I was forced to recount the times I had said something that day and the days prior. To which she responded that those compliments were not sufficient because she had not noticed them. To which I responded by giving her lavish, over-the-top compliments. To which she responded by telling me to go back to what I had been doing before.
I think a lot of us women feel conflicting emotions about looking like Mom.
In the case of my wife’s mom, she’s had some work done; so she has managed to avoid looking like Ben Franklin, even though she is older than Elly Patterson.
Yet Elly kind of represents that conflicted feeling, if you think about it. She doesn't want to look like Marian, but she dresses dowdy and buns her hair anyway. If she's really so against it, why not color her hair, cut it, get modern clothes, etc.?
Actually Elly does colour her hair. A long time ago, there were some strips which talked about it. In the Sunday colour strips, there is not a speck of gray in the Elly locks. The problem I think is not that Elly does not want to look like her mom because, as you say, she would dress differently, maybe even dress like Lynn Johnston does in her pictures. It seems to me that the statement John Patterson made today is what Elly really wants, i.e. “I don’t care that you look like your mom. Get as ugly as you want. It’s the package inside that counts.”
DreadedCandiru2,
She wants to passively whine about being old, ugly and irrational because she thinks that makes her a better person than those of us who laugh off our problems.
Unfortunately, there is little in the strip to refute this. I can’t think of a strip where Elly took pride in her appearance, or laughed off being old or overweight, even back in the days when she was young and pretty.
My husband came from a family where looks seemed to be the big complement you gave a woman. Men were complemented on their accomplishments: job/money/ability to support family.
In my family, I don't remember anyone ever complementing someone due to looks; complements were based on accomplishments, both for males and females--good grades, sports ability, etc.
In Lynn's universe, it's almost as though Elly doesn't have any accomplishments to feel proud of--good mother, good wife, business woman--nothing.
In Lynn's universe, it's almost as though Elly doesn't have any accomplishments to feel proud of--good mother, good wife, business woman--nothing.
And that, sadly, is how she likes it. Elly is that rare bird that feels more comfortable moaning in regret and despair. We see a woman who'd look a bit better if she'd glue herself togther properly. She sees a crone. We see a woman who raised three kids to the best of her ability. She thinks that she's only 33 1/3% successful because two of thenm are still single. I could continue with positives that she'd turn into negatives but they only allow you a certain amount of text in these dialogue boxes.
Heh. Interesting that Elly colors away the gray but does not choose a more attractive hair color (the dishwater blonde is so blah).
Howard, I agree that people tend to mate with those who are at their same general level of attractiveness. Partly because this is what we can get, and partly because it's comfortable. Being married to a much more attractive person can lead to paranoia; being married to someone much less attractive can leave you feeling you got a raw deal.
But I think too much is made in our society of the idea that men are looks-obsessed. Yes, that is a big part of the subconscious attraction for men. But when deciding who to marry, guys tend to employ their brains too and consider other factors than just "who is the prettiest girl who will have me?" None of my male friends married the prettiest woman who would have them. They picked someone who was compatible in many areas, looks being only one of those things.
At least in my age group, people do not seem to conform to the idea that men want good looks and women want a good provider. That is very old-fashioned thinking to people 30 and under, at least. People are looking to marry their best friend. That is the big trend I see.
Debjyn, that is actually a huge pet peeve of mine. There is a particular well-respected actor I admire. I noticed, to my chagrin, that when he is asked about how he feels about male co-stars, he compliments their acting and talent in specific ways. But when asked about female co-stars, he just compliments their beauty. Time and again. I have never read even one talent-based compliment from him about a woman. This is particularly pathological because the questions usually are framed so that it seems they are asking for his assessment of their talent.
Since I noticed it with him, I have noticed many, many other men in all walks of life do this. IT IS SO CONDESCENDING AND MISOGYNISTIC. Men everywhere need to stop doing this. And even if it's unintentional, that doesn't make it okay. I don't think the actor I like does it intentionally. But I do think he has faulty and probably somewhat harmful assumptions about women--namely, that the beauty compliment is the highest compliment for a woman. I have known women who grew up with dads who acted that way. They usually wind up kind of messed up and overvalue their looks as a means to success.
DreadedCandiru2, I think Elly is one of those people who measures success on purely superficial levels. Looking pretty, having a respected dentist husband and a nice house and a long marriage, and having three kids who get married and live a suburban life and give you grandkids means she is successful. It doesn't matter that Mike is a jerk. It doesn't matter that her marriage is dull and dysfunctional. It doesn't matter if Liz and April feel fulfilled being wives and mothers. It's what looks good on paper (and to the neighbors) that counts.
Sadly, this is true of many people in the real world. They worry more about looking good to others and doing what looks successful on paper than they do about actually doing what will lead to the most enriching life for them. My parents and grandparents definitely did this. And I see a lot of signs that Lynn buys into this mindset as well.
debjyn
In Lynn's universe, it's almost as though Elly doesn't have any accomplishments to feel proud of--good mother, good wife, business woman--nothing.
Elly has been told that she made Lilliput’s into a landmark, but I have not seen her take pride in that. As for the kids, she and John take pride in the oddest things. “Oh look, our kids are old enough to not fight with each other. Oh, look. Michael is raking leaves without being asked. Oh, look. April has turned 16.”
And some of the more obvious stuff gets no pride at all. We don't see “Oh look. April, our daughter, is on television performing a piece of music she wrote to raise money for Special Needs kids” And, believe it or not, if you check over the Michael book strips, there is not one strip where John or Elly tell Mike or themselves they are proud of him.
DreadedCandiru2
And that, sadly, is how she likes it. Elly is that rare bird that feels more comfortable moaning in regret and despair. We see a woman who'd look a bit better if she'd glue herself together properly.
This is Lynn playing the Cathy comic strip card with Elly. She’s been doing it this way since 1979.
qnjones
But when deciding who to marry, guys tend to employ their brains too and consider other factors than just "who is the prettiest girl who will have me?" None of my male friends married the prettiest woman who would have them. They picked someone who was compatible in many areas, looks being only one of those things.
True. My point is only that the men will establish a level of attractiveness the woman must surpass. It is not ever the prettiest girl as you point out. It is that there are some women who will not be considered as a potential mate for no other reason than their looks, if they fall below that level of attractiveness.
At least in my age group, people do not seem to conform to the idea that men want good looks and women want a good provider. That is very old-fashioned thinking to people 30 and under, at least. People are looking to marry their best friend. That is the big trend I see.
I would like to test the boundaries of that. Would a woman in your age group marry a man, who had no job or made minimum wage? My observation is not so much that the women today have to have a husband who is the main provider, but they do have to have some respect for his career. However, my other observation is that men who are millionaires or close to being millionaires, do manage to attract women based solely on the amount of money they make. I don’t think that has changed, even with your age group, but I will accept your observations.
qnjones:
She's raised three children that have the same superficial mindset to one degree or another. Liz, as we both know, was more in love with the idea of having a handsome man Paul in her life than she was with the man behind the good looks.
I've been thinking about this all day!
My Mom is/has done what Elly is doing, and she does look like my Gramma -- her mother -- and she hates it. I can relate because I hate that I (might) look like my mother. I am highly insulted when someone says we look alike. I'd much rather look like my father than my mother, and if someone says I do look like my father it's a sigh of relief on my part and I hold on to it with hope!
I'm curious if this could have to do with a person's personality? I find my mother's personality to be ugly! So perhaps this is why I find her so revolting and dread looking like her and take it as an insult. If I look like her, perhaps then I will end up like her?
In an unrelated note, kind of ... Recently, sort of, I have been told that I have an "all right face". Not pretty. Not beautiful. Not appealing. All right. Oddly enough I'm not supposed to take this as an insult. This person has also told me I look "lovely" and I suggested he get his eyes checked because, according to the dictionary, "lovely" is more pretty than "beautiful" and I most certainly do not consider myself "beautiful".
Adrianne
Howard,
Yes, actually, many of the women in my graduating class of high school married men (well, boys, really) who were bums. There is a very large proportion of women that I know who are the primary wage earner for their families while their husbands languish in low-pay, low-skill jobs or are chronically unemployed. My sister is preparing to do this herself, as her boyfriend is a screw up with no marketable skills who has a lot of credit card debt.
I don't think this is a good development, myself. But with a lot of under 30 women, it seems the pendulum has swung too far the other way--they aren't considering how the man will contribute to the marriage financially at all. I tried to talk to my sister about how she would feel about her boyfriend if they were married and had two children to support, but he was still screwing up at work and spending foolishly. I asked if it was okay with her to have to support him. She was unconcerned. Her attitude is that 1) he will change!!!, and 2) she likes so many other things about him that she doesn't care about the money.
I think that this is a lot like our discussion from yesterday, in that there is more variability today in what people look for. Some are still on the traditional looks/money track, but there are a lot more people who are off of it. For most of my friends, who are smart and well-adjusted, that meant that their husband had to at least have respectable work and contribute his share. For my (somewhat brainless and impulsive) sister and most of her friends, who were never told by anyone to "look for a good provider" or even "find someone who will pull his weight," because it is out of vogue for parents to coach daughters about finding a mate that is a provider. Instead were raised on the pop culture maxim that told them "money doesn't matter, only love does," so they tend to ignore logic in this matter. I know my parents never gave any advice in this arena and are certainly refusing to offer any now, even when they see disaster looming. It isn't PC to tell your kid, "don't marry a man you will have to support." Because that's labeling. Oh, and it's mean to say he's not smart or motivated. Whenever I have said something about how I am concerned she will have to support him, people tell me I am a bad person not to give Lazy Spendthrift Boyfriend the benefit of the doubt. The default now seems to be, assume the bum will magically change after marriage, or you're a mean person.
Of course, I expect they will all be divorced in a few years, when they get a hard lesson in why it's a good idea to have at least baseline financial/career requirements for mates.
So again, there's just more of a range.
adrianne-p
First the questions:
I'm curious if this could have to do with a person's personality?
Highly unlikely. Some of the meanest people I ever met were very physically attractive.
If I look like her, perhaps then I will end up like her?
Seriously doubt it, unless your mother is also planning to be a nun.
This person has also told me I look "lovely" and I suggested he get his eyes checked because, according to the dictionary, "lovely" is more pretty than "beautiful" and I most certainly do not consider myself "beautiful".
Unless you have changed your appearance dramatically from the time you posted your picture with the Mounties some months back, I seem to remember you were quite the babe. You haven’t developed a goiter or anything like that, have you?
qnjones,
For my (somewhat brainless and impulsive) sister and most of her friends, who were never told by anyone to "look for a good provider" or even "find someone who will pull his weight," because it is out of vogue for parents to coach daughters about finding a mate that is a provider.
Likewise from the stereotypical male point of view, to look for a wife who will be a good mother, a good cook and a good housekeeper seems very old-fashioned. However, there is an extremely practical point to that stereotype. After all, why would you want a wife who was the opposite, unless you were interested in taking care of the kids, the cooking and the cleaning all by yourself?
Whenever I have said something about how I am concerned she will have to support him, people tell me I am a bad person not to give Lazy Spendthrift Boyfriend the benefit of the doubt. The default now seems to be, assume the bum will magically change after marriage, or you're a mean person.
With this statement you sound very much like the women of my generation and actually a number of young single women I know from my work, who tell horror stories about guys they date, who can’t keep a job and who want to move in with them to sponge off them. When I listen to them, sometimes I think it is a novelty to be dating a guy who can hold down steady employment. But when I meet these men at company social parties, I can see what’s up very easily. The men are outgoing, sociable, and often very good-looking. Is that the case with your sister’s boyfriend?
Outgoing and sociable? Well, to an extent. He loves to party and get drunk with his Navy buddies. I know that Libby likes him because he is always thinking about having fun, and not any serious topics. But he is uncomfortable around people who are educated more than he is (high school diploma) so has been downright unsociable toward our family, where everyone but the sister he is dating has a graduate degree. We have tried to get to know him, but he is avoidant to the point of rudeness. When I have been at social events with him, he makes it clear he is very uncomfortable being in our company because he feels inferior. He comes right out and says so. I swear, we are very nice to the guy.
To my mind, the boyfriend is a 5 or 6 on an "attractiveness" scale of 1-10. My sister is easily a 7 or an 8. So she could be doing a lot better there.
I think what you are getting at is that these women like that these guys are "fun." This is definitely true of my sister. "Fun" is her only criterion. My thinking is, that is just fine when you are talking about a boyfriend. But if you are going to become domestic partners or get married, then "fun" tends to get spoiled by resentment over the fact that you are carrying his ass. And I don't want her to figure that out 5 years into a marriage, after having two or three kids.
But, every time I try to talk about my concerns with my sister or my family, they look at me like I am a bad person for mentioning money in the same sentence as love and marriage. Which is so different than things were at every other time in human history, when marriage was largely a financial consideration.
If I look like her, perhaps then I will end up like her?
Seriously doubt it, unless your mother is also planning to be a nun.
No, definitely not. It was only a few weeks ago, if not only a few days ago, that she figured out who Jesus is. And she still has issues with the Church and it's teachings.
Unless you have changed your appearance dramatically from the time you posted your picture with the Mounties some months back, I seem to remember you were quite the babe. You haven’t developed a goiter or anything like that, have you?
No : ) No goiter, just a small scar from my surgery, which some people tell me they don't even notice, and others tell me is really rather pretty in that it's something only I have. Here are my pictures from my Confirmation.
Me, the Bishop, & my Sponsor.
Just me, smiling.
: ) Adrianne
qnjones
But, every time I try to talk about my concerns with my sister or my family, they look at me like I am a bad person for mentioning money in the same sentence as love and marriage. Which is so different than things were at every other time in human history, when marriage was largely a financial consideration.
I, for one, do not think you are a bad person. In studies on the reasons for divorce, money is usually the number one item.
adrianne-p
Here are my pictures from my Confirmation.
From these pictures, you still appear to be quite attractive to me.
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